Coming Off Lexapro After 20 Years on Psych Meds

A note before you read: This is Celeste's story, one person's path through withdrawal. The taper details she shares are what worked for her body and her life. If you're thinking about coming off a medication, move carefully and with support.

❤️‍🩹 Joanna

Joanna: I'm just gonna dive in, and I would like to ask you, Celeste, tell me a little bit about the absolute worst when you were coming off of your last medication. What were you noticing in your body? What were you experiencing?

Three Strikes Coming Off Lexapro

Celeste: So I had multiple attempts coming off. I actually call it my three strikes and I'm out with doctors helping, until I found how to safely come off. And the withdrawals in tapering were all there, but they were what I call baby withdrawals, so I didn't feel the full impact. But the first time feeling the full impact of withdrawals, that first doctor said, "Oh, you know, this is gonna be easy. You can come off in..." Oh, what did she say? Like a month. And she said it's so easy, and the way that she told me to come off of Lexapro was very wrong. She's like, "Oh, you don't even need to halve it. What you need to do is you need to go every other day, and then every other two days, and then every other three." So really wrong.

Joanna: The worst.

Celeste: And then at some point, basically within that month, the stretch gets wider and wider, and then you cut it off. And I'm like, that is the absolute... She must have been thinking about a different medication. But anyway, that first day when I was on nothing, I had terrible brain zaps, and it was like something I'd never experienced before, just feeling like your brain is being electrocuted.

And then at the time I just had two little littles. I think my oldest was four and my youngest was two. And so I was very angry and easily upset. A lot of irritability, and I also stopped sleeping. So I have the brain zaps, I have the insomnia. Obviously that was just the first day, but I knew, 'cause the insomnia started during my taper, at least kind of towards the end. And then I think it was day two, I remember this one moment where I was just so irritable, and I think my child spilled some milk off of the table onto the floor, and I screamed bloody murder. And I had a neighbor run over that was just like, "What just happened?" And at that moment I was like, okay, that's not me. That's not normal, to just scream bloody murder with just something so small irritating me. It was like the circuits in my brain didn't give me the time to process that this was just milk, not a big deal. You're used to this. This has happened many times with having children.

And so I knew immediately, I was like, okay, I have to get back on this. And so day three I got back on and immediately was calm. Immediately the brain zaps... the sleep returned, everything returned. And so that just showed me how powerful... I literally felt chained to Lexapro. I was like, in order for me to be a good mom, I have to be on this. But I think I read online about withdrawals, and I was like, that was withdrawals. And so in order for me to taper this, I got courage to try again with a second and a third doctor. And both of those, I purposely made sure that they gave me longer tapers. I think the next one was like a four-month period or something.

Joanna: Clearly wasn't the best. "I need to have a different doctor tapering me."

Celeste: Yes. And they didn't seem to know how to do it. Even I was basically telling them, "This is what I've learned online, that I need to go super slowly, and then I need to take gradual reductions, not do the first terrible taper method." I was like, "That one's wrong," and I learned it for myself.

Joanna: It's like you're the guinea pig, having to inform the doctor about how to do this.

Celeste: I just don't think they know, because I don't think they are used to having people say, "Oh, I wanna come off this." Of all the 10 years that I was on the last one, Lexapro, only one doctor was like, "Wait, why are you on an antidepressant? You are so happy. You have a beautiful life. You have children." And I kind of knew that too, but I didn't know that that was even an option, to get off, when you're told, as when I was 16, that I would have to be medicated for the rest of my life.

Medicated at Sixteen

Joanna: And that's when you were first told that, when you were 16?

Celeste: Yeah. Yep.

Joanna: Just like a lifelong sentence at 16 years old. "You have a mood disorder, you need this for life." When actually it's like normal for 16-year-olds to go through stuff and to get through it.

Celeste: Yeah, absolutely.

So the first one was Lyrica, and then I was probably on that for a couple months and then cold turkeyed. Then given the depression diagnosis and then put on Cymbalta. And Cymbalta, I was probably on that for less than a year, probably closer to like six months. And they kept having to up the dose because I kept crashing back into a depression. I would stabilize and then I would crash again. And then after we got up to whatever, I don't know what the dosage was, then the doctors cold turkeyed me off of Cymbalta.

Joanna: How old were you then?

Celeste: Probably 17. Probably... I was still 16.

Joanna: So you're figuring out who you are.

Celeste: Yes. Yes.

Joanna: Okay, and just for our listeners, Celeste first was medicated when she was 16. So this is during teenage years, when you're trying to figure out who you are and you're learning how to manage bigger emotions, and then you're also having this go on.

Celeste: Then after I was cold turkeyed off of Cymbalta, I was given a new diagnosis of anxiety, 'cause now I started experiencing panic attacks and a deeper depression. I didn't know that's what it was, but then they were like, "Okay, now we're gonna give you a diagnosis of anxiety and depression, and we're gonna put you on Paxil."

And then Paxil... I had a paradoxical reaction to Paxil, and I basically became chronically mentally ill on that. I experienced heavier anxiety and heavier depression, and I felt like my heart raced. Dr. Josef explained what was happening to me. Basically, I was having a severe reaction to it.

Joanna: An adverse reaction on it? Wow. I didn't know all of that.

Celeste: So Paxil was the hardest part of my medication journey, because I felt like I just got more and more broken. I just remember when I was on Paxil, it was like, "I don't think I can live like this for the rest of my life." I didn't get suicidal, but I just was like, "This is so hard." And luckily at that time, I was in college, and I was doing my dance degree. I got a bachelor's in dance even while I was on Paxil.

Joanna: Wow.

Celeste: So I think dance was really therapeutic for me at that time. But I would experience panic attacks, and I just had to keep dancing on stage or keep dancing in my dance classes. I just had to keep living with it, and it was hidden. Nobody talked about mental illness. Nobody talked about medications. I was probably the only one at that time, or at least that I knew about. But then at some point, I needed to get off of Paxil. I really felt like, "Okay, I need to just get off of this." And so after I graduated from college and some years had passed, I decided to get off, and then they gave me a taper. They were like, "Oh, well, we think that Paxil needs to be tapered." And so then I was given a two-week taper of...

Joanna: Two weeks?

Celeste: Yeah, of cutting the pill in half.

Joanna: You've been through a lot.

Celeste: Yeah. I still call it a cold turkey, 'cause it is hands down a cold turkey.

Joanna: It is.

Celeste: So I basically was on Paxil for a good seven years or something. Paxil was my college, and then when I'm done with college and trying to look for work, after I got cold turkeyed off of Paxil, or the two-week taper, my brain and my body just were falling apart. It was just so much anxiety, way more than when I was on Paxil, that I was like, "Okay, I'm gonna throw my hands up in the air and just get on another antidepressant, and fingers crossed this one's gonna work." And so that's when I asked the doctor, "Okay, don't give me a new diagnosis. Just give me another antidepressant, and I will hope that it works. And just make sure that it's safe for pregnancy, because I've heard that some antidepressants aren't safe for pregnancy."

Lexapro, "The Baby Antidepressant"

Celeste: And then that's when I was told, "This is Lexapro. It's gonna be like the baby antidepressant." That's kind of how they described it to me. They said it was a mild antidepressant. The things people have told me... So then right as I got on Lexapro, literally within days of getting on Lexapro, everything quieted. All the anxiety, all the panic, all of the bodily problems completely resolved. And then I just felt this emotional blunting. But to me it felt like, oh, I found what works for me.

Joanna: You weren't in that terror state anymore.

Celeste: I wasn't in the terror state.

Joanna: And doom.

Celeste: And so then I felt like, oh, I can live my life. And so then I got a job and met my husband and had kids. So this whole time I'm thinking, "Oh, I struck gold. Lexapro is great. Lexapro's awesome. It saved my life."

Joanna: Yeah, 'cause it worked, you know, after those withdrawals, which were horrible. And at that point, were you even aware? What did you think? You just had mental health problems?

Celeste: Nope. No idea. Yeah, and my family was encouraging me. Oh, what was the analogy? Like a diabetic that needs insulin. They're like, "You just need medication for your mental illness, your mood." So I just kind of trusted that. But deep down inside, even from the beginning, all of the medications that were given to me, I always was like, "Is this really what I need? Is this really true?" Even as a teenager.

Joanna: I had this secret thing inside myself where I was like, "Maybe someday I'm gonna kick this."

Celeste: Oh yeah, same.

Joanna: I was like, "I'm not gonna tell you that, but maybe someday I'm gonna kick this." It was deep in there, you know?

Celeste: Exactly.

Joanna: That's great. That's really good.

Celeste: But I was on Lexapro for five years, basically, until I had that first attempt. So basically a full decade on Lexapro.

Pregnancy and the Delivery Room

Joanna: The first attempt was kind of confirming to that inner voice. It was like when you went to give birth, and then the doctor's like, "You're on Lexapro. We gotta watch for your baby after they're born." And you're like, "Hello, this was supposed to be safe for pregnancy. That's what I was told."

Celeste: Yep. Well, and they're like, "The mother's mental health is more important." They don't say the other side of the story. They don't say for the child. They say the mother's health is more important. And I'm like, well, of course they would say that, because that's empowering the woman and it's helping the woman put herself first, but then just kind of turning a blind eye to if it does anything to the baby.

Joanna: No mother is gonna be like, "Oh yeah, I'll willingly do that." It's one of the greatest motivators in the world, to overcome something, if you are doing it for the benefit of your child. So it's almost like I felt like it was taking away my motivation, you know?

Celeste: Yep. So for example, I've heard of somebody whose doctor says, "Oh, well, you're pregnant, so we need to get you off your antidepressant." Well, what is gonna happen to the mother that is pregnant? She's gonna go into withdrawals, and so of course she is going to have a super hard time and need to get back onto it. Therefore, the conclusion is her mental illness will suffer if she's not on this, and therefore the pregnancy will be bad. And I'm like, "Yes, of course, but you're missing the whole point."

So I don't know about tapering during pregnancy. I don't think it's ethical to do studies on pregnant women. It's not ethical, so it's not gonna be done. But I felt like I had to finish my taper, get to a stable spot, before getting pregnant. Whereas I think some people are like, "Well, what if I just taper?" Like, for example, if that doctor was like, "Well, we could just taper you slowly while you're pregnant," I have no idea what that would do. I don't know. 'Cause you're developing a child. So to me, I'm like, just have the whole pregnancy medicated and do it later, and just don't even worry about it.

Joanna: That's a thing I feel like there's not science on, but I think probably, based on how the woman's body works, her body will prioritize the baby, and maybe she'll just have a harder withdrawal, you know? Which is hazardous.

Celeste: But my babies all experienced withdrawals, from my perspective, because I was still breastfeeding. Luckily my babies all were normal. My first had a hard time with the breastfeeding latch, but all of my children are normal. But what I was saying about the withdrawals is, I think they experienced withdrawals as I tapered them, because when you're weaning them off the breast milk, you're slowly giving them less and less of it in their system. And I think that is a good natural process of helping the baby acclimate. But I obviously wouldn't recommend being medicated in the first place.

Joanna: It's just sort of the least damage, or the most gentle we can be, considering the situation. So it's good you were able to do that then.

Celeste: 'Cause I knew that withdrawals were a thing, and I knew basically the depth and the danger of being on Lexapro for my last pregnancy and delivery and breastfeeding. I was like, "I know I'm giving it to you right now." Cause that was my third pregnancy. That was my third baby, so I'm like, "I'm so sorry, but I can't get freedom from this." It was before that third attempt, but I'm like, "I'm so sorry, baby girl."

Joanna: Oh, I take comfort in that. I think they're okay. It allows for a safe taper for them, and then they have that relational comfort. And so, you know, that comforts me, and also they seem fine. So I'm sure they're okay.

Celeste: So were you medicated with your babies too?

Joanna: Yeah, so I was postpartum with medication, so my baby got it through the breast milk. But I also did extend the breastfeeding longer than a year, which I think helped, even though I wasn't thinking of it that way, 'cause I didn't think of it as a dependency until years later, when I was realizing it was a dependency. But thankfully, I was believing in breastfeeding and allowing it to kind of take its natural pace, so I think that helped. And then with my next baby, I was medicated through the pregnancy and then also did a longer... It was like two years before she was done breastfeeding.

Celeste: Nice. That's awesome.

Joanna: Yeah, so I think that probably helped, 'cause it was every day, but just once a day. You know, like a slow taper that next year, which I didn't know. It's kind of amazing to think back and be like, "Oh, okay. I safe tapered you."

Celeste: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I've literally never thought of that before. I love how you just said that. That makes me feel better, because it's hard to not have mom guilt for things that...

Joanna: We didn't know. We're just doing the best with what we have, you know. I think that is parenting. And I also trust, like, "Okay, God knew what I didn't know, and he allowed it, and there's a purpose, and he's gonna take care of us."

Raising Kids After Getting Off Psych Meds

Celeste: Well, and now I'm gonna protect my children from these medications too. I actually thought that I would have to medicate my children because I was medicated. It was just kinda like, if it's in your genetics, then...

Joanna: Yeah, right. When I was in it, it seemed like the worst possible timing. It's the middle of their childhood. I don't wanna be going through this really ugly thing in front of them, all of that. But from another perspective, it's been beautiful, because they witnessed me coming through something hard and getting to the other side. And so there's this family lore around it, you know? Like, "Oh, Mom got through that." Like, "Mom's not on medication anymore."

And right on the heels of that, my first was going through puberty, and so I am sure if I had not come awake to this fully, "Oh, I wonder if she has any kind of mood disorder. I wonder if she's gonna..." you know? I would've just gone down that track, 'cause that was my belief system before getting free of this. And so now, with that being just nowhere in the zone... over my dead body, you know?

Celeste: Oh yeah, absolutely.

Joanna: It's one of their favorite stories. They like to remind me of this. One time when I was bringing one of them to the doctor, one of them was dealing with just some mood things, and she had had a tick bite, and we were trying to resolve what was going on, and it was more like physical things, you know? And the doctor had suggested a psych med for my child, and I don't actually remember the session, but apparently I yelled at this doctor. And my kids remember it, and my daughter's like, "I was so proud of you, Mom." And they repeat this story of how I told that doctor. And I'm like, "Yeah, what a great moment."

Celeste: They felt your mama bear protection.

Joanna: Yeah, in that moment. Where I was like, "There's just no way that's gonna happen."

Hitting a Wall at the Smallest Doses

Celeste: So I had one doctor and then another doctor, and then the last one, three strikes and I'm out, and I kind of just gave up for a while. But deep down in my heart...

Joanna: What happened with each of those? Did you go down low on the taper and then you were just bad again?

Celeste: Yeah. So I was always pretty much on 10 milligrams of Lexapro, and then the second taper they said, "You know, you can cut the pill in half, so get down to five, and then cut the pill in half again and get to 2.5." So the second taper, when I got to 2.5, I stopped sleeping. And so I actually didn't drop down to zero, because I knew that that would make life unhinged. Internally, I was like, "I don't wanna do that to myself, and I have kids." So instead of going back up to 10, something inside me said, "Go back up to five, because you felt fine at five." And so I followed that, and I'm so glad that I did, because the next time I tapered, I was like, "Well, I'm gonna be at an advantage here. I'll be able to go slower, and I'll be able to cut even smaller."

So then my third attempt, I went half of five, 2.5, and then after 2.5 I went to a quarter, so I went to 1.25. And when I got to 1.25, 'cause I had given myself much more time... This one was probably about six months. When I got down to 1.25, again, I stopped sleeping. And when you stop sleeping, you can't do life and take care of children. And at that point I had my third. I had a little newborn.

Joanna: Oh, I didn't know you were tapering while going through pregnancy.

Celeste: I wasn't. I was tapering after I delivered, and I was breastfeeding, and I was taking it super slowly. I think I did like a month per reduction. I thought it was slow. But then when I got to 1.25 and stopped sleeping, then I went back up to five, because it's the smallest pill. I think it's the size that most people don't even know exists, 'cause the 10-milligram pill is like the small pill, but the five-milligram pill I think is what they probably give to children, or maybe as a starter dose. People think that five milligrams of Lexapro is... they call it a subtherapeutic dose.

And so I don't remember exactly how long, but I was on five milligrams for multiple years, and I would get my prescription refilled at different places that I lived, and doctors would say, "Why do you want a subtherapeutic dose?" And I said to them, "Well, it's working. So I guess I don't need 10 milligrams." And they were always just chill with that.

But then when I found out that I could safely taper, and that it had to be through a liquid, and that I had to take 10% reductions, then every time I had withdrawals it was still scary, but it was like, "I can do this. I can live my life." And so that experience with withdrawals was probably the hardest, because it was so stretched out for such a long period of time, but the severity wasn't as bad. So it's hard to compare my own withdrawal experiences.

Joanna: Well, and it sounds like it did become a safety net, where you could go up a little bit at that time. But then it was that feeling of, "Oh, I'm chained to this. How do I actually ever get off?" Was that kind of what it was like when you would up-dose?

Celeste: Oh, like in my hyperbolic taper? I didn't ever...

Joanna: Like, "How will I ever get off of this?"

Celeste: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Yes. It just felt like such bondage, which, yeah, it's not fair.

Out of Egypt, Through the Red Sea

Celeste: Can I share with you this analogy that I thought of? I think I shared this with Angie Peacock. But it was basically, one morning I was by myself and driving home from a place that I had been in the morning, just to have some solitude, and the scripture story of Moses being in Egypt and getting the children of Israel to leave Egypt and to be free from bondage that they'd had and gotten used to for so long... I had gotten used to being medicated for so long. I had gotten used to that, but I knew it was a bondage, and I felt like it was a heavy bondage.

And so me traveling out of Egypt, it's a huge transition and it's a lot of change. And then you get to the obstacle of the Red Sea, and me being able to safely taper, that hyperbolic taper, basically was like the Red Sea parting for me. And it's scary and it's hard, but walking through and finding that liberation just meant the world to me, because I thought that I would have to be medicated for the rest of my life. But then realizing, no, you don't have to be. You can choose, and here's the safe path out.

And then after I got through the Red Sea, then the children of Israel are in a wilderness, and so then they have to travel in a wilderness to reach their promised land. And so to me, I was like, "Okay, well, I've gotten through the Red Sea, now I'm in a wilderness. Now I have to navigate the world on my own until I get to what I perceive as my promised land of not feeling numb anymore, being able to fully feel myself and human..." 'Cause 20 years is a long time to be medicated. I think you only know that if you've been medicated for a long period of time. It's like your body has to profoundly change.

Even though I took a long time to safely taper, I got down from five milligrams slowly, slowly, slowly, all the way down to .01 milligrams. So basically using the liquid Lexapro, getting all the way down to .01 milligrams was a fraction of a droplet of liquid, not even a full droplet out of the tiniest baby syringe, which was a half milliliter size. But yeah, that was a long journey.

Joanna: Yeah, that is a long journey. I think that's a great analogy for what it is like to get off meds, is even the freedom part, you know, there's this ongoing healing that has to happen even after the crisis is over. And so yeah, that experience of the wilderness, I can relate to that a lot. And I think that's very common for the journey, to go through this uncertain period where you're like, "Well, is this gonna work? Am I gonna actually feel better?"

Head Pressure and Other Withdrawal Symptoms

Celeste: Yeah, and my withdrawals... Basically, the fastest reduction I made was, like, two weeks typically, and then if I got sick, then of course I wouldn't make another reduction. But I basically made roughly 10% reductions. Sometimes it was a little bit more, sometimes it was a little bit less, just depending on my instrument.

But what I was gonna talk about is my withdrawals. So the worst thing I experienced in withdrawals was this... It's really hard to describe, but it's this sensation of your head being tightened by what I thought was a medieval torture device, where you have a band around your head and it's being squeezed. So I would experience that for a couple of hours, usually on the first day after I made a reduction. I don't even know what it's called, but I've heard several other people say, "I've had that too."

Joanna: Head pressure.

Celeste: Mm-hmm. Head pressure. And I'm like, "Is the brain inflamed?" Who knows? But that was probably the most difficult. I didn't have the brain zaps. It never got to that extent, but something was changing in my brain, and I would always say to my husband, "If I didn't know that what I was experiencing right now are withdrawals, I would think that I was pregnant." Because your taste changes, your sense of smell changes, you're nauseous, you're dizzy, you're very emotional, anxiety can ramp up. The withdrawals were there, but it wasn't overwhelming, because I was slowly making the reductions and trying to be easier on my body. But I'm like, "I'm not pregnant." Every time that would happen, I'm like, "I'm not pregnant."

That's actually one of the reasons why I wanted to get off in the first place, because I wanted to have at least one pregnancy that I wasn't medicated. 'Cause obviously I'd been on Lexapro for all three of my children's pregnancies and breastfeeding. Oh, and by the way, I was told by the doctor who prescribed me Lexapro that it was the safest for pregnancy. None of them are safe for pregnancy... Because she told me that, I trusted that, and so I actually thought that it wasn't a big deal, that being on it wasn't affecting them.

And so then when I go to deliver my baby and I'm on the delivery table, and I have a doctor or a nurse telling me, "Okay, you're on Lexapro, so your baby might actually come out and have some trouble. They might be really sleepy. They might..." And I'm like, "What? Are you kidding me?"

Joanna: Nobody told me there were any risks involved.

Celeste: Yeah. And so my son came out of me and he had a really hard time latching, and so I immediately started pumping exclusively to feed my baby, 'cause we couldn't get the latch thing. And so anyway, I ended up having postpartum depression, and the birth was pretty traumatic. I had my placenta ripped out of me...

Joanna: Oh my gosh.

Celeste: I think the doctor was like, "Okay, I have a time crunch," rip. And then I had all the bleeding, the excessive bleeding, because of that. So anyway, first-time mom, I'm pumping to feed my baby, because I really, really wanted... that was my goal, to have breast milk. And then the second baby I had, my first baby girl, that birth, they said the same thing, and this time I'm like, "Okay, I need to get off of this."

Joanna: The first clue of this medication not being something you should do lifelong... Was that kind of that first, "Huh, this might not be for my best health or my children's"?

Celeste: Yes. It was in the delivery room. And then between my second and my third, my last, those were the attempts. Those were the three strikes and I'm out.

Joanna: Like, "I need to work on this. That's the goal now."

Celeste: Yeah. Well, I actually kind of gave up. So I had my third baby, and then I did the slowest taper that I'd ever done and got down to 1.25, got down to that quarter, and then I gave up after that. And then we were basically getting around the time of having a fourth child. We wanted four children. That was our goal. And then around that time, that's when I found out that I needed to hyperbolically taper. And so basically we had to push off having a fourth child to get through this experience of safely getting off. And we even toyed with the idea of getting down to a tiny dose, 'cause we looked at the timeline of how long it takes to hyperbolically taper, and hyperbolic tapers can actually go for years, depending on how slow you go.

Joanna: People get very discouraged by just looking at that schedule. They're like, "Oh my gosh, how much of my life am I gonna be working on this?"

Celeste: Yeah. But that timeline really bothered me, because I think knowing that I was getting closer to 40 at that point, my husband and I were like, "Hey, you know, we would like to have our last baby before you get close to being 40." I'm 38 now, and we still haven't had a fourth child. In fact, when I think about pregnancy right now, it doesn't feel right. And my husband feels the same way, and we're like, "Well, I guess we need to be content with three children." And we are. We love our children so much. But I think having that goal of four children, we kind of had to let go. And I told Adam, my husband, I said, "You know, let's wait like six months. Maybe my body will feel that much more normal." I'm 38. I could still have another baby. But I don't feel...

Joanna: It doesn't feel like the time.

Finding Anatomy of an Epidemic

Joanna: Well, tell me a little bit about the taper. How did you find out about hyperbolic tapering, and then, when you got the liquid, how did you decide on your schedule? What informed you and helped you with overseeing that? Did you find a doctor, or just tell me a little bit about that journey.

Celeste: Yeah, so I was chatting on the phone with a doctor. At this point, I was living in Virginia, and it was a doctor that lived in California, and it had nothing to do with tapering, what I was talking with him about. He has a fasting clinic that helps with just health, and it's where they do supervised fasting, and it's just really cool.

Joanna: A health clinic type thing?

Celeste: Yeah. And I just was like, "That's so cool." And as I got off the phone with him, I said, "I'm breastfeeding right now, but in the future, I think it would be really cool to do one of these supervised fasts." And, you know, they have juice fasting, or they have just water-only fasting, and you're being supervised by whichever doctor. Seeing the benefit of fasting was like, "Oh, that seems really interesting to me." But breastfeeding, obviously that was a no-go at the time.

And so I was just about to get off the phone with him and I said, "You know what? I have a feeling that I need to ask you something. You're a doctor." This guy that I'm talking to, even though he's a very natural doctor, he still prescribes. And I was like, "I have a question. I have tried three times to get off of an antidepressant, and I've been told that I need to be medicated for the rest of my life."

And he said, "Okay. I need you to read this book. It's called Anatomy of an Epidemic, by Robert Whitaker." And immediately this hope sparked in me that was like, "Okay, I don't have to be on this for the rest of my life. There is a way off. There are answers that I have never received." I just get chills thinking about it.

Joanna: Me too. I'm like, "Oh my gosh, this is your light bulb moment."

Celeste: Yeah. And he only said one more thing. He said, "You can get off, but you have to be extremely patient." He didn't tell me to hyperbolically taper. But what I did is I looked him up and found out basically how he knew the author, Robert Whitaker, how he had any connection. And I think somebody in his community had this connection, or maybe they met each other or something, but there was a connection. And then I started watching Robert Whitaker's videos, and then I found all the other people in the deprescribing community. I was binge-watching Josef Witt-Doerring, Angie Peacock... Oh gosh, what is her name? The founder of Surviving Antidepressants.

Joanna: Oh, yes, yes, yes. I'm blanking on her name too.

Celeste: The sweetest lady in the world. But anyway, I started watching all the videos, and also... There's another one. Unshrunk. The author of Unshrunk, Laura Delano. I started watching all of her videos.

Switching to Liquid Lexapro

Celeste: And at that time, I don't think there were companies that had established, like, this is how to safely taper. I think it was just on the online forum. Outro hadn't come out yet. And so all I had was all these YouTube videos and SurvivingAntidepressants.org: "Okay, you need to take 10% reductions." And I was like, "Okay." So I had my doctor switch me to a liquid. We had just moved to Virginia, so the doctor who had just refilled my prescription was just at a clinic or something, 'cause I was like, "Hey, I just moved here. I just need a refill, but can you make it the liquid form?" And they said, "Sure."

Joanna: So nobody oversaw your taper, you just got them to refill it?

Celeste: Yes. But then I felt like I needed to have a doctor's stamp of approval. I felt like I needed to have something. So what I did was, I actually got a primary care doctor, and I brought in the Maudsley Deprescribing Guidelines. I had bought that book. That book was published right when I was starting my taper. And so the timing of that couldn't have been any better.

Joanna: Were they open to it?

Celeste: Luckily, this is what she said. She's younger. I could tell she was probably even in her 30s, maybe late 30s, probably around my own age. And I opened up the Deprescribing Guidelines and I showed her where I was at. I was like, "Okay, I started at five milligrams and switched to the liquid and just went straight to five, and then it goes down to 4.5, and then..." I don't remember what I was at, but I had made several steps before going into the office, and I was super nervous. I was like, "She could say some crazy things." But she said to me, "I have never seen this taper before, but you seem to know your body. You listen to your body, and let me know if I can help you." That's all she said.

Joanna: Okay. Wow.

Celeste: Because I'm determined, and I have the tools, and I know that all the other past doctors didn't know. And then I knew through the deprescribing community that the typical doctor is not gonna know how to safely taper, just because their training didn't give them that knowledge. So that was really helpful. But I haven't been back to a doctor since then, and that was in 2024.

Joanna: So you never went back? How did you get them to keep refilling it?

Celeste: I didn't need to, because I just used that one bottle. Because I started at five milligrams, and when you're making those reductions...

Joanna: It's such a small amount.

Celeste: It's such a small amount. In fact, I finished with liquid still in my bottle, even though my taper was about 19 months long.

A Blind Taper with My Husband's Help

Celeste: And that's another little story that I'll tell you about. The end of my taper, I had my husband take over and do a blind taper. And so he basically did what I would've accomplished to finish out the rest of the two years, to get to that 24-month mark, 'cause that's kind of what I was going for, 24 months. He finished it all in one month, that last stretch. My plan was to give myself a full month of holding before going to the final jump of .01 to zero. And so he basically shortened that last... He took me down from... I think it was .06 to .01, all in one month.

Joanna: I'd love to hear that story. How did that decision come about? I'm sure that was a lot of back and forth.

Celeste: Yeah. So I had periodically joined Angie Peacock's tapering support groups, which were super helpful. So every three, four months I would go on, or maybe even closer together, I don't remember. But in one of the last groups that I went to, Angie Peacock told us a story about somebody who needed to be blind tapered to get off more rapidly, because they were having an adverse reaction on top of withdrawals. And so that doctor got them off much faster, and I felt really good about that. And I asked my husband, and he said, "Absolutely, I will do that for you, but we need to..." We were just about to move to Utah from Virginia, and so...

Joanna: Oh, so you were in the middle of...

Celeste: Just one move. But when we moved to Utah, that was our green light to start this blind taper, because we needed to make sure we were in the same place, and that he didn't have any work trips, so that he would be available every single day. What he would do is he would take a little glass jar and fill it with water, and then put in whatever size of droplet was left. And then each day he would fill it for me, and I would just drink it every single day.

And he said that he took note of my patterns, and so he made a reduction every seven days, because he noticed that the first night I would not sleep a wink, and then I would have a little whirlwind of withdrawals for a day or two. And he said by day three I was usually fine. And so he would just wait it out for the rest of the week, and then he would make another reduction, and this pattern just kept going. And he said I had a really hard time from like 0.04 to 0.02 or something, 'cause he made a bigger than 10% drop. But he's like, "I didn't want this to be prolonged." And then he said that when I got down to 0.01, I still had the same pattern.

But the thing that I liked the most about that experience with blind tapering is that it takes away the psychological suffering and the anticipation of making a reduction. So I didn't know that they were happening. He didn't tell me. He just asked how I was doing every single day. "How are you doing?" And so I just knew he was gonna ask me how I was doing, and when I finished, I had no idea that I was done.

Joanna: You just had no idea.

Celeste: I had no idea.

Joanna: You'd be drinking that glass of water the rest of your life.

Celeste: I did. I actually kept drinking that vial. He said that he filled it with just water for the next two weeks. And after two weeks of just drinking water...

Joanna: You didn't know you were done?

Celeste: No, no. He took us as a family out to dinner, and he said, "Celeste, pick wherever you wanna go to dinner, and we're just gonna go together." And then when we got our food, he said, "You know, we're gonna celebrate right now, because Mommy has been done with her taper for two weeks now."

Joanna: You had no idea?

Celeste: And my three little kids were just so excited. They're like, "Mommy's done with her taper!" And they had been praying for me literally daily that I would have a smooth taper. And when you're hearing little children, and you're seeing the faith that they have to pray for God's help and healing, it's so heartwarming. And I feel like my healing was lifted, and I felt sustained by God, because of my children's prayers. I mean, I had many friends praying for me too, but just their little hearts and their little prayers and their little faith was just so beautiful.

And so at that point, my husband's like, "Okay, we're done. Now we don't ever need to say the word taper again in our house." He was just so done with it.

Joanna: How did you feel in that moment? Were you just like, "Are you kidding me? Is it really over?"

Celeste: I was in disbelief, actually. I was shocked, but I was happy at the same time. I knew he wouldn't lie. I was like, "No, I am done. I am done." But I think I felt guilty too, because just a couple days before that, I was like, "Adam, how much longer are you gonna make me taper?" I was just having one of those bad days. And I didn't know that I had been done. And I think he had told my parents. We had a family gathering, and I think he told my parents secretly, "Don't tell Celeste, but she's been done." And so they knew that I was done. So I kind of felt bad that I had complained and basically thrown a little fit that this was taking so long, whereas I was already done.

Joanna: Well, you were the one suffering.

Celeste: It's just hard. But then, after I got down to zero, I think I had the typical pattern that I had had before. I think it was just that first night, no sleep, and then the whirlwind of withdrawals and the nausea and whatever, and then I never experienced any withdrawals after that. Just being done with that was so nice, and it lifted slowly and slowly, where my perception of the world, my eyes, my ears, my nose, my mouth, everything just settled, and the withdrawals were gone. 'Cause I know that people would say, "Well, once you get off, aren't you gonna have a really hard time?" I was like, "Nope. I finished it. I had a safe exit. I did it."

Joanna: Wow. That's amazing. So you felt like it really was done. It took kinda the normal amount of time as the other small tapers, and then you leveled out, but this time with no more tapering to do.

Emotional Blunting and PSSD After Lexapro

Celeste: Yeah. And I have noticed... I did the interview with Angie Peacock, as you know, and in that video she was like, "You're four months off," 'cause it was four months at the time, and she's like, "You still seem like you're emotionally blunted." And I was like, "Oh, I have no idea. I probably am." But I was like, if she sees it, and she kind of sees the emotional flatness... I think she called it anhedonia. If she sees that, then maybe I'm still having residual something, just from being on the medication. Not the withdrawals, but my body needs to change.

And I've had sexual dysfunction. I had sexual dysfunction while on Lexapro, which was the other reason why I wanted to get off. Number one was to not be medicated for my children's health, and then number two was because I noticed that the sexual dysfunction kept getting worse each year I was on Lexapro.

Joanna: Wow. And did you figure out it wasn't relational? Did it take a while to figure out, oh, this isn't an emotional problem, this is a physical problem?

Celeste: The sexual dysfunction? Obviously I had an amazing relationship with my husband, and sexually things are great, but I was starting to experience more and more numbness and inability to feel sensations in that respect. And I had known, just from searching online, that that was due to the antidepressants. That's just very common. And I think it's around 70% or more of people that are on antidepressants that experience sexual dysfunction. That's what I've heard, but I don't remember the exact number.

But since getting off Lexapro, I've kind of experienced PSSD, post-SSRI sexual dysfunction. And so I haven't healed in that way. I don't know what's going on, but I think it's common to experience that, especially for people that were medicated for many years. I wanna think that it's slowly coming back, and I have moments where I'm like, "Oh, I feel a little bit more sensation," or whatever. That's something that's so personal. Obviously sharing that is hard. It's hard to share that kind of stuff.

Joanna: It's sort of an honest reflection on the effects, of what it's really been like for your body.

Celeste: Yeah. I got safely off of it, and the dependency is gone, but still having these residual effects has been difficult. But I haven't lost hope for complete healing in that aspect. I just know it might take longer than other people.

Joanna: Angie's talked about that with the sexual aspect of her life too, that those experiences just felt like they were missing, like they just weren't in the mix. And then it did come back. And so sometimes it just does take time, and there's not a magic button, but some of these other effects do just have a longer tail before they resolve completely.

How I Overcame Insomnia After Antidepressant Withdrawal

Celeste: And I told you that I overcame insomnia.

Joanna: Yeah. So when you were off and you were like, "Okay, this is done," I'd love to hear about each of the aspects, of things that remained for you. Things that improved, and then things that still remained, and how those improved. And I remember you talking about insomnia. Tell me about that one.

Celeste: Yeah. So there was the question mark of, am I emotionally affected still by these medications? And then the sexual dysfunction, and then the third one was the insomnia that I was experiencing. I think it was just over two months ago, I reached out to a sleep expert that was on a video with Josef Witt-Doerring. I was like, okay, this guy is informed. His name's Devin Burke, and I'm like, okay, this guy is someone that I feel like I trust. And so I looked him up and started reading and binge-watching his information, and it was so life-changing.

Because my insomnia had started when I was tapering. Obviously, it's part of withdrawals, but to have it become progressively more and more and more, and then, even when I'm off, to have it continue getting worse and worse and worse... Basically, I learned from him that I had a catalyst. There's always different catalysts in people's lives. There was a starting point, and for me it was withdrawals from my tapering. But I started habits that I corrected, and then my insomnia was fixed. And those habits were basically trying to force sleep, and going to bed extra early every single day religiously, and stressing when sleep doesn't happen. But I also embraced it, 'cause I knew that insomnia was part of withdrawals, so I was embracing it, but then not realizing that I had created habits, like going to bed early, that were prolonging it.

So what I learned from Devin and from other sleep experts that I had been reading about and listening to was basically taking your whole 24-hour day into consideration. I think they would call it the 17/7 rule or something, where you have to be fully awake for 17 hours, or 16 and 8. 17, be fully awake and do things you enjoy. Take breaks. Insomnia isn't just about bedtime. It's about your full day. And then making sure that you're in bed for that good seven-hour, eight-hour chunk.

And so what I did was, instead of going to bed early and lying in bed for over 10 hours and wondering why, and waiting and waiting, I would go to bed late. I would wait till between 10:00 or 11:00 at night, make sure I hit my... and enjoy my evening. I put the kids to bed at 8:00, and I would just enjoy my evening and do whatever I felt like. I would go take walks. I would read some books. I would watch movies, no movies that are super stimulating, just very relaxing.

Joanna: Right. Gentle.

Celeste: And just making that little switch of going to bed later and actually taking cues from my body, like, "I just yawned," or "My eyes are starting to droop." That's when I go to bed, and I lay in bed, and I don't even think about it. I just fall asleep.

I basically looked at it, and when I reached my year mark of being off antidepressants, I had gotten down to getting one to two hours of sleep per night. So I would fall asleep at 6:00 in the morning and have to be up at 7:00 to take care of the kids. So I had basically gotten to an extreme insomnia state, and at that point I was like, "There's no way this is due to the antidepressant. It has to be something else."

Joanna: So you explored, "Okay, is there something else I need to tweak or shift?"

Celeste: Yeah. And I think having that experience of insomnia... I needed to experience it for a reason, basically. I know that I will probably help people with that information. Just because I experienced it, if I meet somebody that's having insomnia, I say, "You know what? I've been there. In fact, I've kind of been on the extreme end." And when you have nights of no sleep, and then you need to take care of your children, you need to get them to school, you need to help your little toddler, whatever, I've been there.

And then learning, okay, you have habit changes, and then you also have mindset changes. One of the big things that I learned was to stop trying. Don't even try. That really sunk in. The analogy of swimming in water and frantically paddling... I think I shared this with you. You're frantically paddling to stay afloat, and that's you trying to sleep. That's being in insomnia. You're trying so hard.

Joanna: You're working harder. "What else can I tweak? What else can I... Okay, let me go to bed a little earlier. Let me just make sure I dim the lights. Let me just make sure I think calm thoughts."

Celeste: Yeah, the whole list of stuff, that's what this is. And just learning that you just need to trust your body and lay back and float. And so I basically took that analogy, and there were so many other beautiful analogies in Devin Burke's work, that I was like, "Okay, I'm so glad that my body knows how to sleep, and I can just trust that and make the habit changes." And it took like a three-day transition period.

Joanna: After years of this building?

Celeste: Yeah, yeah. And of course it was building while I was tapering too. I think it's three years total, but the beginning stages, I would fall asleep at 1:00, and then I would fall asleep at 2:00, and then it turned into 4:00, and then 6:00. So throughout those three years, it basically did that transition. But letting go of trying and trusting that my body knows how, so I don't need to try... Just having that liberation and knowing, oh, I actually can sleep like my husband. He gets in bed and he falls asleep. He doesn't think about it. He doesn't need to think about it. He just does it. So anyway, there's so much that I've learned.

Joanna: Just like in the water, going back to that analogy of learning how to float, learning to lean into it.

Celeste: Yeah. Yeah, I'm so glad too, because...

Joanna: How's your sleep now, would you say?

Celeste: I sleep amazing now. I will say I go to bed probably around 11 o'clock. And I enjoy it. People might think, "Oh, that's so late." But when you've figured out your own sleep window, and when you've had insomnia for so long, I just enjoy it. So I basically sleep from 11... I don't even know when I fall asleep. I'm not lying there for any period of time, really. I fall asleep pretty much immediately after I start sensing my eyes and my yawning and the drowsiness, and then I wake up at 7:00, my alarm. So they say, you know, you always have to wake up at the same time. And I've noticed that my body actually wakes up without my alarm. Not every day, but it just wakes up, and I feel so good. I'm like, I got my solid chunk. And it's been two months now since I've been sleeping like that. And I'm like, I don't ever have to go that path ever again for the rest of my life, because I have these tools now that are like, "Okay, you know what to do." And sleep was the number one withdrawal that I experienced.

When Insomnia Feels Like Proof You Need the Meds

Joanna: Yeah, talk to me about that, because I've heard so many people say, "Well, if I can't sleep, I must need to go back up," or "If I can't sleep, I might need an additional sleep medication." So how did you deal with the fear part?

Celeste: Oh, insomnia was like... At the beginning, I'm like, "Oh no, I have to be on this medication." It became a sleep drug, and actually it is prescribed for sleep. Antidepressants are prescribed for sleep.

Joanna: Very commonly. A lot of people's first pathway on, and they're told, "Well, you're probably not sleeping because you have anxiety or you have depression." And so they get diagnosed with that. They get put on an SSRI, and then eventually they can't sleep again, and then they need some more, this whole cycle around sleep. So what did you tell yourself when those fears came up, like, "Oh my gosh, I'm not sleeping. It could get worse. I'm gonna get worse"?

Celeste: Well, I had all those fears up until those fears were dissolved, literally dissolved, when I found out how to safely taper and joined Angie Peacock's tapering support groups. It's like, no, you have to embrace the withdrawals, let them wash on you, and let them pass. And so I became not afraid of insomnia.

Joanna: To have the courage to say, "This isn't an indicator that I'm going downhill forever. This isn't like, 'Oh, I need this forever.' This is just part of the process." So you accepted it as part of the process.

Celeste: Yeah. And I learned that antidepressants are sedative. They're not actually helping you have natural sleep, they're sedating you. Boom. They're that strong. And same with the benzos and a bunch of other sleep pills. They're just so sedative, but they're not really helping you have true sleep. And a lot of people that are on sleep medications, a lot of them have insomnia problems layered on top of it. So it's not fair.

Joanna: It's not fair. And it's almost like coming out from under that belief is the real hard part, that "I need this to sleep, and I need to sleep to be okay, so I'm never gonna be okay." And then, "I really will be okay if I'm not sleeping the full night? I'm not gonna die from this?" And learning to come out from under... It's almost like this oppressive belief system we get on medication, along with the medication dependency.

Shedding the Identity of Mental Illness

Celeste: Oh, yeah. Throughout my taper, especially in the beginning, I was shedding this skin. I was shedding this identity of having depression. I was shedding the identity of having anxiety, of identifying as that, and just becoming my true self. Figuring out who that was after so many years of being told that this is something that's chronic, it must be in your biology.

And the same thing with insomnia. Even as I was coming off, and even after I finished, I remember my parents being like, "Well, you know, we struggle with sleep occasionally," or, "Your grandparents have struggled with sleep, and so it must just be in your biology." But then when I figured out, oh, there's so much more to that... Yes, I may be more prone to having anxiety and depression, which I'm not afraid of now, and I know that that's just part of life, and it doesn't have to be chronic. It's not chronic anymore. Having depression and having anxiety, I still get them, 'cause I'm still human, but they aren't chronic anymore, and I'm not afraid of it. And so people are like, "Well, once you get off meds, aren't you scared?" And I'm like, "Absolutely not."

Joanna: Yeah. And so you came out from under that belief that "I need these meds, or I will have chronic depression, or I will have chronic anxiety." And that takes a reconfiguring of the whole concept of mental health, 'cause we are told, "Oh, you had this incident. This must mean you have something chronic, and you need this for life." And so it's like taking back that freedom. Kinda like that analogy you were talking about earlier, of coming out from under this oppressive belief, to something that's actually more true across generations, which is, people have ups and downs. We have feelings. We're embodied humans. Some things make us sad. We may go through seasons that are sad or stressful or steal our sleep, you know? That doesn't have to be our identity for the rest of our lives.

Celeste: Yeah. If you have any of the mental health struggles, any of those struggles, you're not broken. You're human, and you're gonna be fine. You're gonna make it through. And I've noticed that finding understanding and support are huge. If you feel alone, you need to find your support, you know? That was huge for me in getting off, in that identity crisis.

For example, when I finished my taper, I kept the bottle with the last of the liquid for two months, because I was like, "I'm not ready to..." I needed that safety net, just psychologically, of just having it there. Even though I never, ever wanted to touch it ever again, and even though I knew I didn't need it, I still kept it, just because I'm human, and that's just what I felt like I needed to do.

Joanna: Yeah, before you were ready to release it fully and have confidence in your freedom from it.

Joy Returning in Ordinary Life

Joanna: What would you say mood is like for you, being off this last year? When it comes to your mood, and negative feelings versus positive feelings, have you noticed changes this last year for yourself?

Celeste: Well, I was experiencing the extreme insomnia, so I would say basically Mommy was in survival mode. That was really hard. But I did the best that I could, and it really helped that I was just not stressing about it, but just embracing it, kind of the concepts that I'd learned in withdrawals. But then when I learned that I could fix insomnia, that I could beat it and overcome it, then I kind of was like, "Oh, man, my recovery from getting off could have been so much better if I had known this information a long time ago." But I'm glad I experienced it.

But within the last two months, I feel the difference. I feel much more clarity of thought. I feel excited. I feel more passionate about things that I used to be more passionate about, and I've been dancing more. I've been singing more.

Joanna: I remember you said you were a dancer. Yeah. Your hobbies, your passions in life, just sort of naturally coming back, not like you're forcing it. It's just coming back.

Celeste: Yeah. Yeah. And just being able to do things with my kids, and plan meals, and plan good, normal, everyday habits in motherhood. I know motherhood is just hard, because we have so many mundane chores to do, and we have to take care of children, and it's hard, but it's beautiful. And I think I'm seeing more of the beautiful as I'm feeling better. It's only been two months, so I'm like, six months from now, I'm sure things will be even better.

Joanna: Yes. I can relate, because I remember being like, "Since when am I fine with laundry?" You know what I mean? When I was feeling better, I was like, "Yeah, this is fine. I'm having a nice time. I'm listening to music." And I just remember feeling a spring in my step when I was just going about normal, ordinary life, not drudgery. Not, "Oh my gosh. Okay. Okay. I'll do my best. I'll do my best." But it became more of a spring in my step, and I would get ideas like, "Oh, I know what I'm gonna make." And then ideas of actual meals, like, "I'm gonna make chicken parm," and actually feel happy about it, you know?

Celeste: I don't think people realize how amazing that feels, unless they've experienced the opposite.

Joanna: Yeah. It's like a treat. It's like, "Oh my gosh, I'm enjoying ordinary life. This is amazing." The little things just become more precious.

The Basics of Mental Health

Celeste: And I'm just so glad to have that freedom from something that I literally took every day for decades. It's just nice to feel like, okay, I have more control of my health. And so one of the beautiful things that I've learned about how to address mental illness is actually the basics. And people don't wanna hear the basics. They wanna hear the quick fixes. But the basics are getting sleep, getting the good nutrients in your body, getting the exercise, getting the sunshine, getting downtime, breaks. Things that people are like, "Oh, I don't want the primary answers." Making sure you have that strengthened relationship with God, or whatever your religion is. Having time to worship, and doing things I enjoy.

Joanna: Rather than just, "Let's add on a pill and keep you going." It's like, okay, in our lifestyles, can we be healthier so that we're flourishing?

Celeste: Yeah. And people, and having good friendships, and helping people that are hurting. That can be really therapeutic too, because unless you're able to serve people and help people, you might not experience the joy until you do.

Joanna: Right. And it also gets your eyes off yourself. You're like, "Oh, I'm not the only person who struggles." It has this effect on us, to be able to look outwards. That's beautiful.

Well, thank you so much, Celeste, for being willing to share your whole story and help other people with it, by sharing the deep, dark parts, and then also what sustained you and helped you through. And I know it's gonna bring so much hope to people, because you're on the other side. I can see more of a spark in your eyes too, and that's just a beautiful thing. So I'm excited for you as that continues through this next year. And you just never know what can happen, you know? What doors open up, and what inspiration comes. And it sounds like you're starting to experience more of that recently, even.

Celeste: Yep. It's gonna be uphill from here. And if there are the normal life's ups and downs, I think they're just gonna be something that I'm gonna take the ride, and just do the best that I can, because I know there will be hard times ahead. It's just part of life. But I think because of the depth of suffering... the lower you go, sometimes I think you can experience more joy, higher joy.

Joanna: You just have more of a perspective on that spectrum.

Joy and Sadness Kicked Out of Headquarters

Celeste: Yeah. So, from the movie Inside Out 2, when you have the characters Anxiety and Embarrassment, and they take the wheel, and then Joy gets kicked out, Sadness gets kicked out, and Anger gets kicked out, and Fear. But for me, I felt like being medicated, my little Joy character kind of was kicked out, and my Sadness was kicked out, and that's not fair. That movie, I know it's just a Disney movie, but I really felt that. I was like, "You just took out something that was actually super important, my joy and my sadness."

And with the emotional constricting and numbing, a thing that I've heard over and over again is, your ability, when medicated, to feel the low, and your ability to even feel the high, which people don't even think about, they kinda get squished. They kinda get taken away. And so at the end of that movie, when all the characters get to be together, and Anxiety gets put in this little massage chair, and she gets to relax and stop taking control, I'm like, "Ooh, I felt that so much."

Joanna: Yeah. That's a great way of describing it, 'cause sometimes I've had a hard time putting it together. It's like, yeah, I experienced a lot of negative emotions on medication, but they were vague, muted, negative things, you know? That I can't quite put my finger on, and are hard to distinguish, especially now, being on the other side and having that full range, and being like, "Oh, they work together." And it's part of being alive, is having the ability to sense and to feel emotion, and to have different emotions about different situations, and that be normal. And they have a resolving effect. Whereas medicated, it felt like there wasn't a natural resolving effect. It was really weird. Like you said, something else is in the driver's seat.

Celeste: Yeah, exactly.

Joanna: There was a different baseline. That's such a good way of describing it.

Celeste: Yeah. And now I'm like, "Okay, now I just need to put my little Anxiety character in her chair, and give her some calming, soothing time." Yes, I want her, because she's gonna protect me from future problems, but she needs to be in her place. She has a role. I'm not gonna be afraid of her, and I'm not going to try to medicate her, and in the process send Joy and Sadness out of headquarters, you know?

Joanna: Yeah. 'Cause they're...

Celeste: Because they're all important.

Joanna: Have you experienced some of that coming back recently, or are you kind of a little bit in the waiting, where you're like, "We'll see how they come on"?

Celeste: Yeah, I'm kind of... I experience joy, and I do experience some sadness, but I don't think I fully experience the full depth that sadness can take. For example, when somebody dies and you want to mourn. That's a big thing that I think I don't quite have that depth yet. I just had my nana die, who I was really close to, and I didn't even cry. And I'm watching people cry, and like, oh, maybe someday I will be able to really feel this.

Joanna: Yeah. It still feels kinda constricted.

Celeste: Maybe just time.

Joanna: In time, that will resolve. You'll feel it.

If You're in the Worst of Withdrawal Right Now

Joanna: Before we go, for someone who's in the worst of it right now, what would you encourage them? What would you wanna tell them?

Celeste: Well, I think there's always a negative feeling that comes when you're in that state. It doesn't feel like it's ever gonna end, but it does end, and it becomes more beautiful than you even imagine. And so just taking somebody else's word that it's going to be amazing, it's going to end. 'Cause I didn't think my taper was ever gonna end, and even though I was doing it as a safe taper, I still was like, "This is taking forever." But just knowing that it will end... Even if somebody is rapidly tapered, and they're struggling for years in that situation, you will heal too. You don't have permanent damage.

And I love hearing stories, and I have friends right now that are like, "I'm ready to come off," and they start their tapering journey, and I'm like, "I will walk with you. I will hold your hand, if you want me to." But just knowing that you will get to the point where you are free, and getting to the point where you're done with withdrawals, is huge. And yeah, it does happen. It just feels like it's gonna take forever.

Joanna: Yeah, and that is the worst thought for most people, and the worst moment. It's like, "This is gonna take forever. I'm trapped forever. I'm stuck on this forever. I have symptoms forever." And so that's a perfect comfort, is, this will end. This will end. You're telling the truth. You lived through it. Well, thank you so much, Celeste. It was so good to talk with you today, and just such an encouragement, and I'm just excited for you and your next chapters.

Celeste: Thank you.